Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters/Archive 42

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Does RS or MOSCAPS decides proper names?

I have been having a debate with Tony1 on whether List of tornado outbreaks by Outbreak Intensity Score should be "List of tornado outbreaks by Outbreak Intensity Score" or "List of tornado outbreaks by outbreak intensity score". The question comes down bluntly to whether MOS (which is Tony1's argument) says proper names in the title cannot be capitalized, or if RS, which capitalized things, is more important for the capitalization in a title. Tony1 has also switched "Super Outbreaks" to "Super outbreaks" in the article subheadings, despite academically published papers capitalizing "Super Outbreak". So, which is more important for article titles/article subheadings? MOS or RS? The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 00:17, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Noting this discussion was opened after Tony1 accused me of "vandalism" for reverting on grounds that RS capitalize things. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 00:18, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm always a bit confused by the "proper names" argument: there are plenty of proper names in English that are rendered in lowercase, unless the only qualification for a name being proper is that it's capitalized, which is adorably circular. Remsense诉 00:22, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Well honestly it needs to be sorted out for scales like this. Several science-scales in the weather-world are currently capitalized: International Fujita scale, Enhanced Fujita scale, Saffir–Simpson scale, Miller Classification, Northeast Snowfall Impact Scale, Sperry–Piltz Ice Accumulation Index. The main argument presented by Tony1, in short, states that all of these need to be decapitalized. My argument was due to RS capitalization. So even though it seems like a hot-headed style discussion opening, it honestly does need to be solved. RS or MOS/grammar for capitalization of scientific things. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 00:26, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

The capitalization of Fujita, Saffir–Simpson, Miller, and Sperry–Piltz are on account of those being names of people. I'd question that "Ice Accumulation Index", but it does seem to be always capped in sources, even though it's a descriptive term, so I won't mess with it. Dicklyon (talk) 02:24, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I downcased the article name from List of tornado outbreaks by Outbreak Intensity Score to List of tornado outbreaks by outbreak intensity score, and have been twice reverted. There seems to be confusion about what a proper name is, perhaps muddied by the practice of using title case to expand acronyms (OIS), which MOS prohibits.

At the talkpage the editor strangely likens his upcasing to "Enhanced Fujita scale (an article that s/he started, excuse me), arguing that I would say it should be "Enhanced fujita scale" (i.e. not capitalized the proper name)", and that "Enhanced Fujita" is itself a proper name. But the editor still wants "Score" in List of tornado outbreaks by Outbreak Intensity Score.

As well the editor upcases main-text titles despite their being plural, which sits oddly with his claim that they are proper names.

I withdraw the claim of vandalism, given WeatherWriter's claimed reason.

Tony (talk) 00:41, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Just want to know that Thomas P. Grazulis the creator of OIS actually capitalized all three words. "Score" is part of the name, similar to how "Index" is part of the Sperry–Piltz Ice Accumulation Index. "scale" in Enhanced Fujita scale is lowercase in all usages of it. But in this circumstance, "Score" is part of the term. Basically, "Outbreak Intensity" is a different term (actually created by the Storm Prediction Center) while "Outbreak Intensity Score" was created by Thomas P. Grazulis last year. Hopefully that helps explain it. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 00:49, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

WeatherWriter, the MOS says how to decide, but doesn't decide itself. In fact, it refers to reliable sources. If you read the lead of MOS:CAPS, you'll see the general principle, "Wikipedia relies on sources to determine what is conventionally capitalized; only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Wikipedia." Looking at the article, I see that the term was made up in late 2023, so there are not many independent sources yet. We don't generally pay much attention to the capitalization of a writer who makes up a descriptive term and presents it with capital letters – what matters is whether independent sources cap it. I did find this Tornado Project Online page that uses lowercase except where defining the acronym. The term is clearly descriptive, sort of like volcanic explosivity index and lots of other such things. I'll look into the others; e.g. Miller classification sure seems like it's over-capitalized. Dicklyon (talk) 01:48, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Actually, I see that site I linked with lowercase is also not independent, as it seems to be run by the creator/author of the OIS. So he doesn't even cap it consistently himself. I guess the question is then whether this new scale is even notable yet. Dicklyon (talk) 16:38, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I fixed Northeast snowfall impact scale and Miller classification, as independent sources don't mostly cap those. If anyone objects, we can have an RM discussion. WeatherWriter, if you still object to the fix tony1 did, we can do an RM on that, too. If you don't object, go ahead and fix it again, please. Dicklyon (talk) 02:20, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

• Issue solved. The article title itself was moved to lowercase (List of tornado outbreaks by outbreak intensity score). RS and academic usage does seem to support the outbreak terms, i.e. “Super Outbreak”, is capitalized, so the subheadings will remain capitalized. But, I will not fight or debate the article title being “ List of tornado outbreaks by “Outbreak Intensity Score”, since the creator is the one who capitalized it and the other source did not. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 05:57, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

  Also note that terms like "super outbreak" have been in use for decades and are not proper nouns. The fact that Grazulis adopted them as category names in the OIS doesn't mean we need to capitalize them. I fixed those headings. Dicklyon (talk) 17:06, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

  It looks like the issue has now been solved. The subheadings have all be decapitalized. I did recapitalize the individual super outbreak articles (1974 Super Outbreak and 2011 Super Outbreak) since those names are actually capitalized by majority of sources including official government reports and media reports ([1][2]). But nonetheless, the problem is fully solved. MOS overall trumps RS in usage, especially if the creator of a name is involved. Thanks y'all! The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 17:56, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

  It's not a majority vote, though, and it doesn't seem to make much sense to treat some super outbreaks different from all others. Gawaon (talk) 18:16, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

  If they aren't treated differently, then the original question is automatically solved: MOS trumps RS usage. If we treat them differently, then RS usages trumps MOS. That is the whole question and reason this discussion really started in the first place. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 18:44, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

  Indeed it is not a majority vote; we do not capitalize something unless the vast majority of the independent sources do for something in particular, which doesn't seem to be the case here. A simple majority is insufficient (and trying to determine one is extremely easy to fake/manipulate through cherrypicking). Capitalizing one thing out of class of things just because a slight majority of sources that one has selected seem to do it is a terrible idea. It's grossly inconsistent (and a PoV-laden problem of promotionalism toward a particular sub-topic and often non-indendent sources that write about it), seemingly out of an "I will do everything in my power to keep some vestige of over-capitalization in my pet topic" angle, which is unconstructive. WP's default is always lower-case, unless and until usage for a particular instance is demonstrably proven to be "capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources", and even then we are not utterly bound to do it, since WP:CONSISTENT is policy. People really need to stop approaching this kind of question like some sort of suicide pact. Just apply common sense, in a direciton which results in what is most not least consistent with the rest of the material, and move on to something more productive than trying to get "S" where "s" will do perfectly fine. Please.

  PS: See also MOS:DOCTCAPS: WP does not capitalize the name of methods, systems, classifications, theories, scales, approaches, schools of thought, practices, processes, procedures, doctrines, etc., etc., or parts thereof at all, so this question did not need to arise in the first place. The rare exceptions (e.g. geological/biological and athropological eras like Jurassic and Neolithic) are capitalized because and only because they are near-universally capitalized in reliable source material. It never, ever has anything to do with someone's arguments that something "really" "is" a "proper name" (for why this is a pointless waste of time here, and in general since even specialists for over two centuries now cannot agree on what that means, see WP:PNPN).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:56, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

  I had changed a couple of headings but didn't move the corresponding articles 2011 Super Outbreak and 1974 Super Outbreak, as I think those are capitalized enough in sources to be controversial, but yes they are sometimes lowercase and not really proper names. I'm going to leave them alone for now, but I'll support lowercase if someone wants to work on that. Dicklyon (talk) 01:30, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

• This was kind of a strange question, since the lead of MOS:CAPS says to only capitalize that which is capitalized in a substantial majority of independent reliable sources, so the answer to the "Does RS or MOSCAPS decides proper names?" question is, well, "yes". There is no either/or conflict here.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:25, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
• This must always be RS, not MOS. We're a factual encyclopedia, not a Live, Laugh, Love sign. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:53, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

  The MOS says to consult RSs, as already pointed out, so there's no this-or-that question here. Dicklyon (talk) 04:40, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

  In grammar, a proper noun is a noun that is used to denote a particular person, place, or thing. Such nouns are properly capitalized. The fact that Dicklyon and others have moved hundreds of articles to use sentence case is just wrong in my opinion despite whatever reliable sources use. It's also questionable since many sources Wikipedia considers reliable are not perfect; they can have grammatical errors. Volcanoguy 17:26, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

  The lead paragraph of MOS:CAPS reads:

  Wikipedia relies on sources to determine what is conventionally capitalized; only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Wikipedia.

  —Bagumba (talk) 07:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

"Proper noun" invites confusion. Better to stick with "proper name"; and to be careful about categorising items that are wrongly capped. Tony (talk) 06:48, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Academic courses

The article says: "Doctrines, ideologies, philosophies, theologies, theories, movements, methods, processes, systems or schools of thought and practice, and fields of academic study or professional practice are not capitalized, unless the name derives from a proper name." Is "fields of academic study" meant to include the official names of undergraduate university courses and qualifications, or are these covered elsewhere? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:24, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

As far as I know, subjects aren't capitalized ("I'm studying for my organic chemistry exam"), but specific courses are ("Are you taking Chemistry 101 this year?"). Deor (talk) 17:09, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

To extend Deor's note above, sometimes it is difficult to determine if text refers to a proper name when writing about a class, a department, or a named chair. Because I so often see the error, copied from the academic style of capitalizing things which are important to academics, I often change to lower case when it is ambiguous. So, if it is a real proper name, make it clear in the text. SchreiberBike | ⌨  17:33, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, the names of undergraduate courses are often "important to academics". Just to clarify, for example, politics, philosophy and economics (which is a specific course at very many universities?) looks particularly ridiculous to me, as it is often abbreviated to PPE. If the names of undergraduate course are always meant to be given with lower case, I think this guideline should explicitly state this. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:13, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

If specific courses are something different from fields of academic study or professional practice, and they should be capitalized, then this guideline should say so. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:33, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I have no objection to capitalizing names of specific courses, such as "Psychology 303", but I agree with SchreiberBike that when it's ambiguous, we don't need to treat it as a course name ("I took freshman psychology"). The guideline already says we capitalize proper names, as evidenced by sources showing that capitalizing the term is necessary and consistent. I don't think we need another example of that for courses with proper names. Dicklyon (talk) 02:06, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I'd suggest that all UK universities will typically spell the titles of their undergraduate courses with upper case. Of course, that doesn't stop Wikipedia saying "we don't care what universities do, we have our own manual of style", etc. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:18, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I suspect there's confusion here in part because course has different meanings depending on where it is used. My out of date academic experience is that a course is something I went to three times a week for about an hour each time over the course of a semester, but a course of study was my major (or the overall area of study I was pursuing for my degree). Either way, we capitalize the specific proper name of a specific course (either meaning) at a specific institution. So, "politics, philosophy and economics" may be a general kind of course at many institutions, but Politics, Philosophy and Economics also may be a specific course of study (or course) at Oxford, and maybe PPE 301 Politics, Philosophy and Economics is the name of a specific class at some university, but after lunch I went to my politics, philosophy and economics course. Clear as mud? SchreiberBike | ⌨  22:39, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

If I understand you correctly, we might see, for example, entries such as: "At school he thought he would enjoy studying history or economics, but with such good A-level grades, he decided to apply to Selwyn College, Cambridge to study History and Modern Languages." ? That looks perfectly fair to me. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:02, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm in no mood to argue (it's a dark day where I live), but you could say "he enrolled in their History and Modern Languages course", or that "he planned to study history and modern languages". A specific named program, course or major is a proper noun, but an area of study is not. I hope I'm not coming off as disagreeable, and the definition of what is and is not a proper noun is complex around the edges, but I'm done and I'll let others discuss. Thank you, SchreiberBike | ⌨  17:27, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I was attempting some agreement by means of an example. Yes, it was pretty dark , wasn't it. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:39, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

THEINST and publications

MOS:THEINST would seem to suggest "reported in the New York Times"—not "reported in The New York Times"—despite the article's title The New York Times. Is this correct, or is there some other guideline addressing this?

No doubt this has been raised more than once. I'm semi-retired and lazy. Sue me. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:06, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

MOS:THEINST applies to institutions, but not titles of works, so I'd refer to the New York Times Building and a New York Times reporter, but the newspaper (italicized like a book or film) is The New York Times when being referred to as such or in a reference. Some publications refer to the newspaper as the New York Times, and there's been discussion about standardizing that on Wikipedia, but no consensus was reached. (Semi-retirement is great, as is being a grandfather. My granddaughter painted one of my nails today and I wear it proud.) SchreiberBike | ⌨  23:16, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

no consensus was reached Ok, so the short answer is do whatever floats your boat. Thanks. (I'm semi-retired from Wikipedia. In real life, I've been fully retired since 2007. No grandchildren (at my old age, great-grandchildren) around, regrettably.) ―Mandruss ☎ 23:52, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

As far as I know, when referring to a publication as a noun, it should be The New York Times, but when used as an adjective the 'The' is dropped ("It wouldn't be worthy of publication in The New York Times, said New York Times reporter Philomena Philabustle in a New York Times article"). On Wikipedia, publication names (and article titles about the publications) generally follow what is in the nameplate. If the 'The' is not in the nameplate, it should be lowercase and not included in the link ("... was published in the Los Angeles Times", but "... was published in The New York Times"). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 05:32, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I me it sounds odd and inconsistent to treat the Los Angeles Times and the New York Times differently. Logic dictates that, regardless of whether or not the article is capitalized and put in italics, both should be treated the same. In the interest of editor sanity, we should standardize on a single style and use it consistently. Gawaon (talk) 09:19, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

It used to bother me more, but the world is "odd and inconsistent" and what logic dictates is mostly irrelevant to the work of humans. Look at the top of the first page of a newspaper. That is what they choose to call their publication; who are we to use a different name? The world is full of inconsistency and I've largely given up on forcing consistency in Wikipedia, which reflects and should reflect the larger world. I'd prefer that the English language worked more like an ideal programming language, but to try to force it to be something it is not is not worth my time (feel free to do so if it brings you joy). SchreiberBike | ⌨  13:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC)